Curse

moriz · Mar 18, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

just some interesting figures i've pulled out of my memory bank. this will start from Factions release to present time.

#1: AoD assassin
AoD{e}, GPS, horns, falling spider, twisting fangs, shadow refuge, dark escape, rez sig

the first dominant assassin build, and played anywhere from pve to gvg. greatly popularized by EvIL and WM with their shadowstepping antics. total damage per spike: ~440 with degen, completed in 7 seconds.

#2: AoD shock assassin
AoD{e}, shock, falling spider, twisting fangs, disrupting stab, shadow refuge, dark escape, rez sig

after the nerfs to AoD and GPS, the koreans came up with this build. by today's standard, it's absolutely laughable. essentially, the assassin build that EvIL relied on during their prime was nothing more than a teleporting deep wound with some disruption thrown in. it should be noted that it's impossible to instagib a person with this build, even if two shock assassins spike the same target. after all, deepwound does not stack. total damage per spike: ~300 with degen, completed in 4 seconds.

#3: SP instagib sin (this was run when shadow prison lasted 7 seconds at 4 deadly arts)
SP{e}, black lotus strike, twisting fangs, black spider strike, blades of steel, dash, burst of aggression, rez sig

this became very popular after the update that saw huge assassin damage buffs. it is probably the first "instagib" assassin build ever created. total damage per spike: ~570 with degen, completed in 4 seconds.

#4: SP instagib sin (after slight nerfs to shadow prison duration)
SP{e}, black lotus strike, horns, black spider strike, blades of steel, impale, tiger stance, expose defenses/rez sig

similar to the first SP sin, but with more raw damage. less degen, but that hardly matters because it guaranteed a kill if you successfully run through the combo. total damage per spike: ~610 with degen, completed in 4 seconds

#5: SP instagib sin (after more nerfs to shadow prison duration and recharge)
SP{e}, black mantis strike, jungle strike, trampling ox, falling lotus strike, twisting fangs, tiger stance, expose defenses/rez sig

yet another incarnation of the SP sin. after black lotus strike got turned into a lead attack, this was the only way to instagib someone reliably. total damage per spike: ~600 with dgen, completely in 4-5 seconds

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there are other assassin builds of course, but i feel these five demonstrates the evolution of the assassin as a profession.

by looking at the builds from start to finish, one can notice two trends: greatly increased damage, and greatly decreased self-sufficiency and disruption. essentially, we have the shock assassin on one end, and the various versions of the SP sin on the other end.

with this loss of survivability and disruption, we're also seeing a shift on the purpose of the assassin split. while EvIL's dual shock assassin builds relied on just two assassins, today's assassin gank builds need two assassins and a monk to babysit them. EvIL's assassins were not really for ganking npcs. rather, they were especially good at creating odd-man matchups on the map. their ability to rapidly collapse back from base to flagstand (and vice versa) was their greatest strength.

nowadays, assassin gank teams strictly attempts to take out npcs. if someone goes back to defend against them, they spike out the defender and continue. the assassin as a profession went from a highly mobile, DISRUPTION based character into a single-minded spiker

so to sum it up: assassin damage went up, survivability and disruption went down. this changed the assassin from a mobile disruption character into a spiker.

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now the interesting question is: is this a good thing? well, it depends. it should be noted that the assassin's ability to survive and disrupt has not been directly nerfed. rather, their increased damage output made those two aspects obsolete. after all, which is easier: carefully timing your shock and dstab to interrupt key skills, and slowly kill the target; or just go 123456 and blow it up in one go?

anyways, my personal opinion is that the assassin should shift closer to the AoD shock assassin archtype, and away from the SP instagib assassin archtype. the former, by neccessity, require a much greater skill level and understanding of the game to play effectively, than the latter. it's also, in my opinion, more fun to watch and play.

Clarissa F · Mar 18, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Good summary of the evolution of assassins. It is telling that many lol's are passed out when anything other than a Moebius sin is mentioned. The evolution can also be related to how the devs have been, with support of many in the game, modifying the sin toward more pve success. For PvP, the evolution of the sin has been a steady downward slope. For PvE, with the MS/DB/Critical Agility trinity, it has great overall usefullness, but is about as fun as watching paint dry.

I'd love to see the interrupt/condition side get more love, again. It would be worth the loss of overall damage spike to get some true utility out of assassins. Besides, the AoD was just fun to watch.

Adam of Tyria · Mar 18, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Have Anet revert most skills to their glory days? Or similar to what they used to be?

(Not including the SP skills and combos.)

Buns United · Mar 18, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam of Tyria

Have Anet revert most skills to their glory days? Or similar to what they used to be?

(Not including the SP skills and combos.)

The SP skills and combos actually were pretty baed in their 'glory days', Shadow Prison was imba, I can tell you that but impale was useless, blades of steel had a max cap of 40(?) extra damage..

Although yeah, it's hard to change people's mindsets back to that. It'd nerf so many templates, p*ss off so many people, and change the assassin as a whole.

Trinity Fire Angel · Mar 18, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

have ANet increase crit defences and make them more survivable in the wild, increase self healing etc etc and then decrease some dmg output.

Way of Perfection is pretty much on par with the elementalists Aura of Restoration.... except it totally SUX. Shadow Refuge is laughable with the 1sec cast time and low duration and small health boost at the end. Sins need a way of staying alive longer with their low low low armour as well as being able to still spike assissit and move about freely on the dancefloor.

put it simply, with the way the assassin is set up today. it is killl or be killed. if you cannot kill in one go,,, you need to be able to at least last a bit longer out there on your own.

moriz · Mar 19, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

blades of steel used to have a cap of +40. some update way back when increased it to +75. that's pretty much what made the instagib builds possible.

Bowstring Badass · Mar 19, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02

You forgot A/Me think [WM] or [EvIL] ran it...

AoD-GPS-horns-falling spider-Twisting-Distortion-Shadw Refuge-DarkEscape

ax mastery · Mar 19, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buns United

Although yeah, it's hard to change people's mindsets back to that. It'd nerf so many templates, p*ss off so many people, and change the assassin as a whole.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

RavagerOfDreams · Mar 19, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

You forgot A/Me think [WM] or [EvIL] ran it...

AoD-GPS-horns-falling spider-Twisting-Distortion-Shadw Refuge-DarkEscape

yup yup

your missing the VERY beginning back when WM had fun with sins right when factions came out

moriz · Mar 19, 2008, 03:09 PM // 15:09

please note build #1. especially, note the similarities.

distortion is a minor variant of the overall build. if memory serves me correctly, EvIL first ran that build with contemplation of purity in that skill slot.

Terraban · Mar 19, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

I was thinking about this last night...

My solution to "fixing" assassins is this:

Make all Duals disable all other Dual attacks for a certain amount of time. That way a combo can only consist of one dual attack, and most of the instagib builds are hurt pretty bad.

With the instagib in a bad place, then assassin utility can be unnerfed, and buffed on the skills that need it.

Basically this would change the assassins role into spike assist + offensive support.

This is all opinion by the way, and I am sure few people will agree with it, so don't bother flaming.

MasterSasori · Mar 19, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

The question in PvP is mostly which is most effective and easier to execute reliably. The instagib doesn't require timing/less damage and won't be favorable.

In PvE, instagib is definitely preferred. Easy and quick kills is everyone's favorite and rather just make the monster your b*tch than try disrupting.

RavagerOfDreams · Mar 20, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Make all Duals disable all other Dual attacks for a certain amount of time. That way a combo can only consist of one dual attack, and most all builds are hurt pretty bad.

lemme fix that for you

moriz · Mar 20, 2008, 12:29 AM // 00:29

don't know about you, but it won't affect the vampiric assault->sig build at all. neither will it affect the shock assassin.... at least the one that EvIL ran.

Bobby2 · Mar 20, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Sigh. Makes me wonder why the Shove Sin didn't catch on...

RavagerOfDreams · Mar 20, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Sigh. Makes me wonder why the Shove Sin didn't catch on...

xD i run a shove sin

Bobby2 · Mar 20, 2008, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

xD i run a shove sin

Me too but they're quite rare. Which is strange, seeing as they have
- AoD Shock's KD-lock capacity (albeit a bit less versatile)
- much of SP's raw damage due to the powerful Falling offhands

fireflyry · Mar 20, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Personally I've never got the Shove Sin but each to their own.

PS:Cool thread Moriz.Great reading.

Terraban · Mar 20, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

lemme fix that for you

All assassin builds run 2 duals? What?

Wild Karrde · Mar 20, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

have ANet increase crit defences and make them more survivable in the wild, increase self healing etc etc and then decrease some dmg output.

Way of Perfection is pretty much on par with the elementalists Aura of Restoration.... except it totally SUX. Shadow Refuge is laughable with the 1sec cast time and low duration and small health boost at the end. Sins need a way of staying alive longer with their low low low armour as well as being able to still spike assissit and move about freely on the dancefloor.

put it simply, with the way the assassin is set up today. it is killl or be killed. if you cannot kill in one go,,, you need to be able to at least last a bit longer out there on your own.

70 armor is low low low??? WTF wow im sure all casters would love to have 70 armor, also RANGERS AND DERVISHES have 70 AL as well.

Its not that sins have paper armor its that most/all sins dont give a second thought about survivability when they can load up with 5 or 6 ATTACK skills and step in and kill something in a few seconds. They dont care if they die as long as they kill something with their "1337" ninja skillz.

Nice post Moriz. I would like to see the sin revert back to disruption rather than instagib.